Spiritual things are learned by the Spirit

Here are some more comments from the article I mentioned in an earlier post. 

 

Tornogal •

 

Thanks, Travis. When next I am in Champaign, I would be happy to visit with you in your church.
1. I am happy you take pleasure in paying tithing to the Corporation of the President. What is unfortunate, though, is that tithing in the bible was to feed and clothe the poor. As I understand it, that is not where LDS tithing goes. And I am struggling to imagine the Jesus you all claim to follow keeping the finances of His church secret from even its members. You are not allowed to see a financial report. I wonder why that is so.
2. People without recommends can't go beyond the Recommend Desk, so they are not "welcomed into the temple." And you know that. And I don't think you can find another church that requires tithing to participate in its ordinances. (I suppose Scientology has a similar practice.) But I am happy to be proven wrong. And your statement that "All people everywhere are welcome to participate in every ordinance of the temple once they are willing to live their lives in accordance with the teachings of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ" is actually a statement to the effect that "Only tithing-paying members are admitted."
3. Um...Check your facts. General Authorities are paid. It is called a "living allowance," and it is reportedly very generous. Most reports put it at 75% of what the person was earning when called to the position. Read Daymon Smith's book (he worked in the Church Office Building). The Wall Street Journal reported (November 9, 1983) that Seventies were paid at that time $40,000 per year. If that were indexed to inflation, that would be about $120,000 a year now. The Quorum of the 12 and the First Presidency are paid even more.
4. Many non-LDs scholars have examined both the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. Not a single one agrees with you. You, I am sure, say the Holy Ghost tells you it is true. They, on the other hand, point to gross problems in archaeology, plant species, animal species, and direct translation of the Book of Abraham papyri. The Book of Mormon plates are, conveniently, not available for examination. Both books are frauds.
5. "Sad is rejecting new truths." Wow. Yes, having examined Mormonism for years, I reject it. Not as a "new truth," but as the fraud it is.
Anyone interested in Mormonism should look at every Mormon source they can find. Talk to members, talk to missionaries, and go to meetings. But then they should do some very easy research on the Internet and in well cited books. They will come to the same conclusion I have: It's a hoax. And that is why virtually all growth in the LDS church is in undeveloped countries and from children of existing members.

Travis Winkler 

 

Tornogal,
My beliefs, experiences and views are clearly at odds with what you choose to believe, and I respect that. I believe that a lot of good can come from people sharing their varying experiences with each other. Have you ever wondered why it is that people who study the same material can come to dramatically different views about it?
Case in point:
I have intently studied both sides of "Mormonism" for about 20 years and have come to know for myself that this church is indeed true, and that it is led by revelation at every level by the Savior Jesus Christ through caring, honest, loving, humble and dedicated disciples who seek the glory of God and the blessing of their neighbor ahead of self. I have chosen to have faith in what is taught by this church, its scripture, and its prophets as those things have been confirmed to me through deeply personal and distinct impressions from the Holy Ghost to my heart in direct response to detailed study, patient pondering, and sincere prayer.
You have "examined Mormonism" as well and from your posts it seems clear that you have chosen to have faith in what you have come across in "well cited books," "non-LDS scholars," and "the internet."
I can't tell you what you and should not believe, but I can offer you some advice. Simply put: spiritual things are learned by the Spirit.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world (remember what I said about Pharaoh?), but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:9 - 14)
Furthermore, the Savior taught: “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17).
And this from the Savior's brother James, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
(James 1:5 - 6)
Do you see the pattern that God has given us for learning spiritual things?
Sometimes people can get sidetracked by trying to determine the truth of spiritual things by subjecting them to tests that were never designed for spiritual things. Debating spiritual things using only temporal evidence and methods doesn’t settle the issues, and yet this seems to be how you have chosen to explore questions about the gospel and the Church. If scientists tried to prove their hypotheses without following the scientific method, they would have no credibility. It is just as strange to think of people trying to prove or disprove spiritual things without following the pattern well established in scripture for learning spiritual things.
I guess that you will need to really ask yourself how well your method of truth seeking has served you. Where has it landed you? Have you found "the peace of God, which passeth all understanding" (Philippians 4:7) as I have?
If not, I enthusiastically recommend that you go about your quest for light and truth using a completely different method. A method that relies a whole lot more on the words of God, deep pondering and heart-felt prayer, and a whole lot less on "well cited books", scholars and Google.
Happy hunting Brother! I'll be praying for you.
:-)

Comments on the Recent Article on Mormons at the UofI

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  Bonnie • 

  Melanie, I had been to a lot of churches and had always found something lacking, but the moment I entered the Mormon church, I knew this was where I'd find my answers. Maybe all the questions aren't answered, but I know God will provide the answers as long as I'm faithful to the covenants I made when I joined.
  

  
  

  Kristin Evans •

  Thanks for a great article. I am also a Mormon and my husband goes to UIUC, so we both are involved in the Institute program and know Travis Winkler very well. I appreciated how respectful you were in describing points of our religion.
  
  
• Travis Winkler • 

  Melanie, It was an absolute delight to meet with you the other day! Thanks for your article. Really well done. You had a lot of information, but you summarized it in a way that was brief yet honest and respectful. I hope that you and your group will join us for our activities, and that you will invite us to join with you as well. You are always welcome here! Also, any advertising that you want to do for our community-wide "Meet the Mormons" Sunday on October 21st would be great. Thanks again!
  

  
  

  Brenda • 

  I left the Mormon church in my 30s, thinking I needed a less restrictive life.. What I found is how much I missed feeling the spirit speak to me. After 20 years I came back and found true joy! Joy beyond explanation. Thanks for your article.
  

  
  

  Mormonwookiee • 

  Good article, Melanie! I admire your willingness to take a fair look at the Mormon faith. Keep on writing!
  

  
  

  Blake Jones •  (a good friend of mine that I play basketball with)
  

  I appreciated your article Melanie. I know the three people that you interviewed and they are all good, kind, honest people. There is so much negativity and darkness in the world, and so much of it is waged against religions and groups of people. My mother joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints when she was a senior in high school. She and my father raised my siblings and I as Mormons and I will be forever grateful for her example of faith in Jesus Christ. I have travelled quite a bit and I always make it a point to go to church in the town where I am visiting if it is on a Sunday. Without exception, I have been amazed at how kind and decent and humble and sincere the Mormons have been. The beliefs they share in common center on trying to love and serve others and try to follow the example of Jesus Christ that we read about in the Holy Bible and in the Book of Mormon. There will always be people who will describe the church as being bad (a cult or a fraud or whatever), but just meeting a few people like Travis, Alexis, Joel, or so many thousands of other Mormons that I've met is a witness to me that the religion is doing something very positive and powerful in their lives. An important part of the church doctrine is that revelation continues today. Not only is the world blessed with a living prophet and apostles on the earth today (with the same authority that Jesus gave to Peter, James, and John, and the other disciples in the New Testament), but God hears and answers our individual prayers and we are all entitled to personal revelation to know what is true. I don't have to take anyone's word for what is truth, I can and do pray about the things I hear and the things I read and God can speak peace to mind and heart and I can know personally what is right and what will help me find the most peace and happiness and fulfillment in my life. And He does answer prayers. The Mormons certainly do not own the rights or the corner on the market of prayers, all of Gods children are blessed with, and commanded to have, the opportunity to speak to their loving Father in Heaven and He will help them understand the purpose of life and what will bring them happiness. God's work and glory is to help us learn and grow and return to His presence forever. That is why He sent His son Jesus Christ to atone for our sins and teach us how to live in love and peace and humility. I feel closer to Jesus Christ when I read the scriptures and when I pray to God, and I also feel closer to Him as I spend time around other people like those you mentioned in the story...who are quietly living peaceful and happy lives and trying to do their best to live a Christ-like life of kindness and service. Thank you again for taking time to meet some great people and share your insights.
  

  
  

  Tornogal • 

  Mormonism is seductive. What it does not tell young people is that it is all-consuming, that it requires payment of a 10% tax to reap the "blessings" of its temple rituals, and that it denies non-Mormons from even attending weddings. It also does not tell people that it is a corporate church that will not reveal to even its own members how much it collects or how it spends that money, or how much of a salary its top 15 (all white male) leaders collect.
  Joseph Smith was a 19th century con man. The Book of Mormon was a crude creation (even Mark Twain said so) and its source was "golden plates" were conveniently "taken back by an angel" before anyone could actually see them. The Book of Abraham (another Mormon scripture) is a proven fraud as well.
  But people sign up, and they send in their money because of all the promises of this church. How sad.
  
   Tornogal •
  I have read the Book of Mormon three times at the encouragement of friends. I find nothing about it in any way other than what I already commented. Joseph Smith was bright enough. And he was hardly "uneducated" or "partially literate." His parents were teachers. He was instructed in reading and writing. The "unmistakable Hebraic form" is the product of the likes of Daniel Peterson and other apologists. Likewise the notion of "chiasmic structure." It is a crude piece. There have been hundreds of changes to the book to correct errors in a book supposedly given line-by-line as Joseph peered into his hat at a magic stone. And several changes were fundamentally doctrinal so the book would align better with his newly created religion. More, the Book of Abraham is likewise a fraud. So, I've read it, I've "taken the challenge." I conclude it's a fraud. So do many people. But have fun.
  
  

  
  

  Travis Winkler •

  Thanks for posting your concerns. Allow me to offer a few corrections from my own experience in the church:
  
  1) Our young people are very aware of, and grateful for the Lord's law of tithing practiced by the people of God since biblical times. Ask one of them sometime. I was one of these youth who saw (and still see) the principle of paying tithes and offerings as a great privilege. It really helps me remember that money is not what life is all about. It helps me remember that all things already belong to God anyway. It also helps me remember my fellow man and his needs. I am glad to give back to the Lord the one-tenth that He asks to help, in my small way, serve and bless others through the many programs and projects the church runs throughout the world.
  
  2) All people everywhere are welcome to participate in every ordinance of
  the temple once they are willing to live their lives in accordance with
  the teachings of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Those not ready or willing to do are still welcomed into the temple, but are invited to wait in a waiting room during the actual ordinance. God's greatest and most sacred blessings have always been reserved for those who have qualified for them by their reliance on the Lord and their lives of faithful obedience. God granting permission into sacred places for sacred things only to prepared individuals has been His practice since ancient times. Ex. The tabernacle in the wilderness, the temple in Jesus' day, the parable of the 10 virgins, the mount of transfiguration, etc.
  
  3) The Church's leaders are all completely unpaid. The money that they live on is from their own personal employment or retirement. From missionaries and bishops to apostles and prophets; all serve out of a love for God and their fellow man, not for monetary gain at all. It seems as though you have been given some misinformation about this. As one who has served in several ecclesiastical positions in the church, and has been very closely associated with several church leaders over the past 20 years, I can assure you that we all view the tithes and offerings of the members of the church as sacred. We would never use a single penny of those funds for personal gain. To do so would not only lead to prompt disciplinary action from the church (like excommunication), but would also be in stark contrast to very personal and sacred covenants we have made with God.
  
  4) Joseph Smith was a prophet called of God in our time just as God has done in times past. The Book of Mormon and The Book of Abraham are true books of scripture given to us through prophets just as the books of the Holy Bible were given through prophets. But, just as in those ancient times, true prophets and "new scripture" are often rejected, opposed, vilified, and attacked by the people around them. I'm sure that Pharaoh and most Egyptians in the days of Moses called him a "con man" as well. Likewise, I imagine that had any of them come across the books of scripture Moses provided (i.e. Genesis through Deuteronomy), they would have called them "crude creations" and "frauds" as well. I have come to know for myself through much study and the inspiration of the Spirit of God that God called Moses, AND God called Joseph Smith. Likewise, I know that God's word is found in the Books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, etc., AND that God's word is found in The Book of Mormon, The Book of Abraham, etc.
  
  5) Finally, your post ended with your feeling of "how sad" it is that "people sign up" for this religion. Again, from my own experience allow me to correct you on this point. Sad is what I was before coming to Christ and fully participating in this church. Sad is what I see among many friends, acquaintances, and relatives who are trying to navigate through life without the true principles of Christ's gospel to guide them. Sad is the sin, greed, addiction, anger, hatred and broken families that I see among those who choose not to live according to these principles. Sad is rejecting new truth, new prophets, and new scripture based solely on the fact that they are new. I have lived on both sides of the fence, and I tell you with all of the sincerity of my heart that I have never been happier in all my life as when I am living the principles taught in this church. My marriage and family are blessed everyday by these principles; I am a better student, a better neighbor, a better friend, a better employee, a better boss, a better citizen, and a better man as a result. I find so much peace, hope, and joy in my faith that I just can't keep it all to myself! This gospel has brought me, line upon line, precept upon precept, into a personal relationship with my Savior Jesus Christ that I never would have thought possible before. Sad? Not so! Very much the opposite.
  
  I encourage you to ask your Mormon friends and neighbors to share their experience with the church and the questions you raised above; you might just be surprised. You can also visit Mormon.org for more information, or to have an online chat with members of our church.
  
  Also, please consider joining us at our "Meet the Mormons Sunday" on October 21st at 9am at our church building at 604 Windsor Rd. in Champaign. You can be my personal guest and sit with my family! After seeing what a typical Mormon worship service is like (from 9-10) please stick around for a Q&A session just for our visitors (from 10-11). This is intended to help you clarify any misinformation you may have heard from "Pharaoh and the Egyptians." :-)
  Hope you can join us.
  

  
  

  Graham •

  "The Book of Mormon was a crude creation..."
  Forgive me, but your opinion that the book and its companions were a fraud ignores some compelling facts:
  1. Joseph Smith was an uneducated, partially illiterate young man--as testified by those who were his neighbors--when he commenced to write the Book of Mormon.
  2. Yet if you were to talk to a linguist trained in the Hebrew language, he or she would admit that the structure of the Book of Mormon's language had an unmistakable Hebraic form.
  3. One of the most telling findings in the Book of Mormon is its chiasmic structure (Alma 36 being the most famous). This is the form often found in ancient texts.
  4. Friedrich Blass, the German scholar in the 19th Century, pointed out in his classic work on hermeneutics (the study of literature, religious and law) that when we have a long, historical document before us we can safely assume that the text is genuine since a forger would be at odds with himself to undertake such a labor. One or two pages, maybe, but 600? Such is the challenge of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's claim of inspired authorship.
  Granted, one can argue against these issues. But let me kindly suggest that you cannot be so dismissive as to rely merely on the satirical opinions of 19th Century writers such as Mark Twain. Allow me, instead, to suggest that you read and ponder it for yourself--as I did.
  
  

"Mormon devotion something to admire"

A recent article that I was interviewed for:

http://www.dailyillini.com/article/2012/09/505be8a574ff0


HOPE ON!